Comments on: Extreme Green: Travel By Cargo Ship http://greencouple.com/2009/02/04/extreme-green-travel-by-cargo-ship/ Learning to live green and live together Fri, 10 Feb 2012 02:23:14 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7.1 hourly 1 By: Social Work Programs http://greencouple.com/2009/02/04/extreme-green-travel-by-cargo-ship/comment-page-1/#comment-3816 Social Work Programs Sun, 12 Apr 2009 15:05:27 +0000 http://greencouple.com/?p=294#comment-3816 Wow, what an adventure. I wonder if any pilgrimage is how we think it will be. It probably is the most growth for us when things aren't going our way actually. Though we think of travel as things being the way we wish on most levels. But for spiritual growth I think travel can be powerful because we often have our egos frustrated. Dee Wow, what an adventure. I wonder if any pilgrimage is how we think it will be. It probably is the most growth for us when things aren’t going our way actually. Though we think of travel as things being the way we wish on most levels. But for spiritual growth I think travel can be powerful because we often have our egos frustrated.

Dee

]]> By: susan welborn http://greencouple.com/2009/02/04/extreme-green-travel-by-cargo-ship/comment-page-1/#comment-3028 susan welborn Fri, 13 Feb 2009 19:01:36 +0000 http://greencouple.com/?p=294#comment-3028 I believe Americans are more concerned now than ever about "being green" for future generations. I believe Americans are more concerned now than ever about “being green” for future generations.

]]> By: Linnea http://greencouple.com/2009/02/04/extreme-green-travel-by-cargo-ship/comment-page-1/#comment-2999 Linnea Fri, 06 Feb 2009 18:30:15 +0000 http://greencouple.com/?p=294#comment-2999 I think it is as important to experience other cultures as it is to explore our own. While the internet and subsequent mass availability of information makes travel to other countries less necessary, I think firsthand experience is immeasurably valuable. Maybe we just need to be more efficient with our travel plans? Instead of flying to various locations for a week or two each, scattered throughout a few years (as Americans tend to do), maybe we should explore the Walkabout Method and take a year to explore any given continent, relying largely on mass and self-powered transportation. I think it is as important to experience other cultures as it is to explore our own. While the internet and subsequent mass availability of information makes travel to other countries less necessary, I think firsthand experience is immeasurably valuable. Maybe we just need to be more efficient with our travel plans? Instead of flying to various locations for a week or two each, scattered throughout a few years (as Americans tend to do), maybe we should explore the Walkabout Method and take a year to explore any given continent, relying largely on mass and self-powered transportation.

]]> By: Maggie http://greencouple.com/2009/02/04/extreme-green-travel-by-cargo-ship/comment-page-1/#comment-2998 Maggie Fri, 06 Feb 2009 14:23:13 +0000 http://greencouple.com/?p=294#comment-2998 Amy - Good point on the dirty diesel. I think part of the reason people choose cargo ships is to counter that instant gratification culture that is fed by technology that allows us to hop on a plane and be across the world in a few hours. Not exactly environmental, but linked to the simple living movement so it feels more environmentally sound. But yeah, no perfect solution yet by any means. Linnea - I hadn't heard about a biofuels jet but I'm intrigued. The last I heard they were still struggling with the issue that biofuels gel or freeze at much higher (warmer) temperatures so most of them can't handle the low temperatures at high altitude. My parents have not-so-fond memories of their old diesel van that would not start if the temperature were below freezing because the fuel would become a solid block of ice... Ian - I haven't researched it in detail but I heard that it's really hard to get a ship worker position, primarily because of union agreements. You have to be a registered sailor (I'm sure there's another word) to get on a reputable ship. Undoubtedly you could find one with lower standards but you might not enjoy the experience. As far as hopping on the plane goes, you're right that one more passenger doesn't make a huge difference. However, a flight will only take place if there's a certain number of people taking it so if we're all trying to consider ourselves as just one extra person, we're all contributing to the problem of generating one flight's worth of emissions. It's sort of the opposite of bus use. Right now we have buses that are driving around with only a couple of people, which suddenly makes it really wasteful to take the bus (imagine driving a giant empty bus to and from work compared to driving a hybrid). But if you have thirty people riding the bus, it suddenly gets way more efficient than having each person drive a hybrid. So we need more people riding buses (and not driving cars) to decrease our overall emissions. I tend to take the middle-ish ground and fly when I need to travel more than about 300 miles away but limits myself to only a flight or two per year. I have not yet embraced Gene Logsdon's advice to stay home and enjoy all the beauties of your own community and forgo the temptations of travel. I guess I'm too easily tempted. :) Amy -
Good point on the dirty diesel. I think part of the reason people choose cargo ships is to counter that instant gratification culture that is fed by technology that allows us to hop on a plane and be across the world in a few hours. Not exactly environmental, but linked to the simple living movement so it feels more environmentally sound. But yeah, no perfect solution yet by any means.

Linnea -
I hadn’t heard about a biofuels jet but I’m intrigued. The last I heard they were still struggling with the issue that biofuels gel or freeze at much higher (warmer) temperatures so most of them can’t handle the low temperatures at high altitude. My parents have not-so-fond memories of their old diesel van that would not start if the temperature were below freezing because the fuel would become a solid block of ice…

Ian -
I haven’t researched it in detail but I heard that it’s really hard to get a ship worker position, primarily because of union agreements. You have to be a registered sailor (I’m sure there’s another word) to get on a reputable ship. Undoubtedly you could find one with lower standards but you might not enjoy the experience.
As far as hopping on the plane goes, you’re right that one more passenger doesn’t make a huge difference. However, a flight will only take place if there’s a certain number of people taking it so if we’re all trying to consider ourselves as just one extra person, we’re all contributing to the problem of generating one flight’s worth of emissions. It’s sort of the opposite of bus use. Right now we have buses that are driving around with only a couple of people, which suddenly makes it really wasteful to take the bus (imagine driving a giant empty bus to and from work compared to driving a hybrid). But if you have thirty people riding the bus, it suddenly gets way more efficient than having each person drive a hybrid. So we need more people riding buses (and not driving cars) to decrease our overall emissions.

I tend to take the middle-ish ground and fly when I need to travel more than about 300 miles away but limits myself to only a flight or two per year. I have not yet embraced Gene Logsdon’s advice to stay home and enjoy all the beauties of your own community and forgo the temptations of travel. I guess I’m too easily tempted. :)

]]> By: Ian http://greencouple.com/2009/02/04/extreme-green-travel-by-cargo-ship/comment-page-1/#comment-2995 Ian Fri, 06 Feb 2009 01:36:43 +0000 http://greencouple.com/?p=294#comment-2995 For the cost issue, is there not a possibility at being a low-wage ship worker to get from one port to the other? Seems iffy when I think about it, but then at least you're not bleeding cash and have some definite things to do while aboard. Might require specific skill sets, sadly, but if they're willing to have an extra pair of hands at the small cost of a few hundred pounds weight, 3 meals a day, and a place to sleep, it could be worked out. For the emissions, if the plane was flying overseas anyways, how is not getting on causing a significant carbon issue? I will admit to not being fully up on my emissions logic, but for one person I am not sure I see the carbon benefit. Also I do not know how you would calculate the emissions from a non-passenger ship. By weight? Even then, I doubt that getting across the ocean is all that environmentally friendly using any modern technology currently in use... For the cost issue, is there not a possibility at being a low-wage ship worker to get from one port to the other? Seems iffy when I think about it, but then at least you’re not bleeding cash and have some definite things to do while aboard. Might require specific skill sets, sadly, but if they’re willing to have an extra pair of hands at the small cost of a few hundred pounds weight, 3 meals a day, and a place to sleep, it could be worked out.

For the emissions, if the plane was flying overseas anyways, how is not getting on causing a significant carbon issue? I will admit to not being fully up on my emissions logic, but for one person I am not sure I see the carbon benefit. Also I do not know how you would calculate the emissions from a non-passenger ship. By weight? Even then, I doubt that getting across the ocean is all that environmentally friendly using any modern technology currently in use…

]]> By: Linnea http://greencouple.com/2009/02/04/extreme-green-travel-by-cargo-ship/comment-page-1/#comment-2994 Linnea Thu, 05 Feb 2009 19:37:35 +0000 http://greencouple.com/?p=294#comment-2994 Correct me if I'm wrong, isn't there also some trial going on in Australia regarding biofuel jets? Correct me if I’m wrong, isn’t there also some trial going on in Australia regarding biofuel jets?

]]> By: Amy http://greencouple.com/2009/02/04/extreme-green-travel-by-cargo-ship/comment-page-1/#comment-2993 Amy Thu, 05 Feb 2009 17:34:33 +0000 http://greencouple.com/?p=294#comment-2993 Hm - while I can understand the desire to not contribute to GHG emissions by flying in a plane, cargo ships contribute to other problems that also have to be acknowledged: Cargo ships burn bunker fuel, which is dirty diesel fuel that contributes to PM, SOx and NOx emissions that can lead to cancer, respiratory problems and heart problems for both those working on board and for those who live near ports or major shipping routes. In the US, US-flagged ships are required to have certain emission control technologies and/or burn a certain level of cleaner fuel - however, the vast majority of ships are flagged for other countries (generally, African or Asian countries), even if they are really owned by a US company. This will change in the coming years - by 2012, all ships entering US waters will have a requirement to burn less-dirty fuel, assuming a lot of political and economic factors go the right way. On the other hand, I can see the argument for "tagging along" on something that's already happening and thereby not creating any additional emissions - great if you can handle the "slow travel" and have flexibility (and don't have children, since cargo ships won't take them). However, it just highlights that, right now, there's no truly sustainable way to get cross-ocean. There have been pilot tests with using wind power and solar power on ships, and some very limited tests with hydrogen fuel cells, but we're still a long way off. Vacuum tubes?! Hm - while I can understand the desire to not contribute to GHG emissions by flying in a plane, cargo ships contribute to other problems that also have to be acknowledged:

Cargo ships burn bunker fuel, which is dirty diesel fuel that contributes to PM, SOx and NOx emissions that can lead to cancer, respiratory problems and heart problems for both those working on board and for those who live near ports or major shipping routes. In the US, US-flagged ships are required to have certain emission control technologies and/or burn a certain level of cleaner fuel - however, the vast majority of ships are flagged for other countries (generally, African or Asian countries), even if they are really owned by a US company. This will change in the coming years - by 2012, all ships entering US waters will have a requirement to burn less-dirty fuel, assuming a lot of political and economic factors go the right way.

On the other hand, I can see the argument for “tagging along” on something that’s already happening and thereby not creating any additional emissions - great if you can handle the “slow travel” and have flexibility (and don’t have children, since cargo ships won’t take them). However, it just highlights that, right now, there’s no truly sustainable way to get cross-ocean. There have been pilot tests with using wind power and solar power on ships, and some very limited tests with hydrogen fuel cells, but we’re still a long way off. Vacuum tubes?!

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